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CafeSSJ
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 Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:51 pm Post subject: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot |
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Jeff Bagwell, 1B
Jeromy Burnitz, OF *
Vinny Castilla, 3B *
Juan Gonzalez, OF
Brian Jordan, OF *
Barry Larkin, SS
Javy Lopez, C *
Edgar Martinez, 3B/DH
Don Mattingly, 1B
Fred McGriff, 1B
Mark McGwire, 1B
Jack Morris, RHP
Bill Mueller, 3B *
Terry Mulholland, LHP*
Dale Murphy, OF
Phil Nevin, 3B/1B *
Rafael Palmeiro, 1B
Brad Radke, RHP *
Tim Raines, OF
Tim Salmon, OF *
Ruben Sierra, OF *
Lee Smith, RHP
Alan Trammell, SS
Larry Walker, OF
Bernie Williams, OF *
Tony Womack, 2B/SS *
Eric Young, 2B *
* -- first year on ballot
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TheGunslinger
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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I say elect Trammel, Morris, McGuire, and Mattingly.
Okay so maybe Tram doesn't get it - the others deserve it.
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SenorXM
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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McGuire will need to buy a ticket to get into the HoF..
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goreds2
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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| TheGunslinger wrote: | I say elect Trammel, Morris, McGuire, and Mattingly.
Okay so maybe Tram doesn't get it - the others deserve it. |
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TheGunslinger
Gone to pot. Poaster of the Weak weener.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:09 am Post subject: |
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| goreds2 wrote: | | TheGunslinger wrote: | I say elect Trammel, Morris, McGuire, and Mattingly.
Okay so maybe Tram doesn't get it - the others deserve it. |
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Yeah - You're right - He should be there too.
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TheGunslinger
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| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:11 am Post subject: |
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| SenorXM wrote: | | McGuire will need to buy a ticket to get into the HoF.. |
He saved Baseball when nothing else was working after the Strike.
Sure - he 'cheated' like most others - but it was his first chase of 50 Plus homers that got people interested again.
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SenorXM
Kids? I should have raised goats...
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| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:12 am Post subject: |
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| TheGunslinger wrote: | | SenorXM wrote: | | McGuire will need to buy a ticket to get into the HoF.. |
He saved Baseball when nothing else was working after the Strike.
Sure - he 'cheated' like most others - but it was his first chase of 50 Plus homers that got people interested again. |
You know how it is in sports Slinger. 'What have you done for me lately'?
McGuire's feat was a life-time ago. No one cares anymore.
Also it just wasn't the steroids. It's also his lies, and how ridiculous he looked when he testified before Congress.
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daver40
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| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:58 am Post subject: |
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| SenorXM wrote: | | TheGunslinger wrote: | | SenorXM wrote: | | McGuire will need to buy a ticket to get into the HoF.. |
He saved Baseball when nothing else was working after the Strike.
Sure - he 'cheated' like most others - but it was his first chase of 50 Plus homers that got people interested again. |
You know how it is in sports Slinger. 'What have you done for me lately'?
McGuire's feat was a life-time ago. No one cares anymore.
Also it just wasn't the steroids. It's also his lies, and how ridiculous he looked when he testified before Congress. |
Exactly. McGuire should never get in.
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jtdude0
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| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Bagwell, Larkin, Trammell, McGwire, and Raines |
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TheGunslinger
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| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| daver40 wrote: | | SenorXM wrote: | | TheGunslinger wrote: | | SenorXM wrote: | | McGuire will need to buy a ticket to get into the HoF.. |
He saved Baseball when nothing else was working after the Strike.
Sure - he 'cheated' like most others - but it was his first chase of 50 Plus homers that got people interested again. |
You know how it is in sports Slinger. 'What have you done for me lately'?
McGuire's feat was a life-time ago. No one cares anymore.
Also it just wasn't the steroids. It's also his lies, and how ridiculous he looked when he testified before Congress. |
Exactly. McGuire should never get in. |
The HoF is for baseball accomplishments - not character reference - if it was Ty Cobb would not be there or have the pitching award named after him.
These writers need to quit acting like baseball players have to be perfect human beings. We pay to watch them play ball - McGuire got me to watch after I had sworn I never would again after one of my "babseball trips" was interupted by the previous strike - it had been years since I watched a game by then. I was not alone.
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meb369
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| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| TheGunslinger wrote: | | The HoF is for baseball accomplishments - not character reference - if it was Ty Cobb would not be there or have the pitching award named after him. |
I think you're confusing Ty with Cy [Young].
But I think the baseball HOF voters are supposed to factor in character - Cobb was inducted back in 1939 (long before the modern criteria were put in place) and being racist was acceptable in an era when blacks weren't even allowed to play major league baseball.
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TheGunslinger
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| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| meb369 wrote: | | TheGunslinger wrote: | | The HoF is for baseball accomplishments - not character reference - if it was Ty Cobb would not be there or have the pitching award named after him. |
I think you're confusing Ty with Cy [Young].
But I think the baseball HOF voters are supposed to factor in character - Cobb was inducted back in 1939 (long before the modern criteria were put in place) and being racist was acceptable in an era when blacks weren't even allowed to play major league baseball. |
Yeah
You got me on that one. 
Point being that the Hall of Fame is for Baseball accomplishment - not personal accomplishment or being a good person.
If it was a whole lot of really nice guys would be there.
Whatever you are calling the modern day morality play here is nothing more than a made for pc figmentation of reality played out by modern day writers.
Babe Ruth was a drunk.
That's about as low as you can go for being a good person and preparing yourself to give it your all and all of that horseshit...
He cheated on his wife, he lied, he played drunk, yet he had a Hall of Fame career. I'm pretty sure he used the 'n' word as well.
I'm pretty sure Abner Doubleday used it too - should we cleanse the HoF or should we ignore our own hypocrisy and act like we didn't know McGuire was using HGH while we watched his amazing season?
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BJGumby
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| Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| TheGunslinger wrote: |
Point being that the Hall of Fame is for Baseball accomplishment - not personal accomplishment or being a good person.
If it was a whole lot of really nice guys would be there.
Whatever you are calling the modern day morality play here is nothing more than a made for pc figmentation of reality played out by modern day writers.
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The point of the steroid era players and the HOF is not about morality but about how the use of PEDS may have affected their numbers.
Based on pure numbers, players like Bonds, McGwire, Clemmens, Palmerio would all be shoo-ins. But we know, or strongly suspect, that these players took advantage of PEDS. How does one account for the affect they may or may not have had on their stats? If McGwire had 20% fewer homer runs, would he be a Hall of Famer? Would Palmerio have joined the 500/3000 club? This is the problem the voters really face.
FWIW, I would vote for Bonds as he had a HOF career before his hat size began to grow. Clemens, probably as he also was one of the dominant pitchers of his era when he pitched for Boston (and before it was suggested he used PEDS. McGwire and Palmerio prbably wouldn't get my vote as they were very good players but never the dominant player a HOFer should be. |
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TheGunslinger
Gone to pot. Poaster of the Weak weener.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:09 am Post subject: |
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| BJGumby wrote: | | TheGunslinger wrote: |
Point being that the Hall of Fame is for Baseball accomplishment - not personal accomplishment or being a good person.
If it was a whole lot of really nice guys would be there.
Whatever you are calling the modern day morality play here is nothing more than a made for pc figmentation of reality played out by modern day writers.
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The point of the steroid era players and the HOF is not about morality but about how the use of PEDS may have affected their numbers.
Based on pure numbers, players like Bonds, McGwire, Clemmens, Palmerio would all be shoo-ins. But we know, or strongly suspect, that these players took advantage of PEDS. How does one account for the affect they may or may not have had on their stats? If McGwire had 20% fewer homer runs, would he be a Hall of Famer? Would Palmerio have joined the 500/3000 club? This is the problem the voters really face.
FWIW, I would vote for Bonds as he had a HOF career before his hat size began to grow. Clemens, probably as he also was one of the dominant pitchers of his era when he pitched for Boston (and before it was suggested he used PEDS. McGwire and Palmerio prbably wouldn't get my vote as they were very good players but never the dominant player a HOFer should be. |
Okay your argument makes sense - if we try to factor in drug enhanced performance it does become a tricky call.
All I can say is this: Everyone in baseball knew what was up, and maybe Babe Ruth used alcohol to enhance his performance! 
A little hair o the dog knocks a hangover down for a few hours... 
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CTGuy
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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What are the odds on McGwire's name being spelled "McGuire" on his plaque should he be voted in?
Oh, and the Veterans' Committee elected Ron Santo today. Not sure he's a bona fide Hall of Famer on baseball stats alone, but his life after baseball was one-of-a-kind. Too bad they couldn't have gotten him in before he died. |
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