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CafeSSJ
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 Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:57 am Post subject: |
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Yankee fan bias. I know. But I just read something where Bernie Williams career numbers are better than Tony Gwynn's in most categories. I was shocked. Gynn batted for a way higher batting average, but that's about it. Bernie certainly walked more.
I thought he was a borderline HOFer. Now I'm thinking he deserves to be there.
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rude
XMelot #6 - Golden Member
Joined: 15 May 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| CafeSSJ wrote: | Yankee fan bias. I know. But I just read something where Bernie Williams career numbers are better than Tony Gwynn's in most categories. I was shocked. Gynn batted for a way higher batting average, but that's about it. Bernie certainly walked more.
I thought he was a borderline HOFer. Now I'm thinking he deserves to be there. |
I'm going to guess that wherever you read that it was written by a Yankee homer because his numbers are not better than Gwynn's.
Better offensive numbers:
Gwynn - G, PA, AB, R, H, 2B, 3B, SB, SO, BA, OBP, OPS+, TB
Williams - HR, RBI, CS, BB, SLG, OPS
Overall Williams numbers come up short of Gwynn.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/gwynnto01.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/willibe02.shtml |
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CafeSSJ
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| Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| rude wrote: | | CafeSSJ wrote: | Yankee fan bias. I know. But I just read something where Bernie Williams career numbers are better than Tony Gwynn's in most categories. I was shocked. Gynn batted for a way higher batting average, but that's about it. Bernie certainly walked more.
I thought he was a borderline HOFer. Now I'm thinking he deserves to be there. |
I'm going to guess that wherever you read that it was written by a Yankee homer because his numbers are not better than Gwynn's.
Better offensive numbers:
Gwynn - G, PA, AB, R, H, 2B, 3B, SB, SO, BA, OBP, OPS+, TB
Williams - HR, RBI, CS, BB, SLG, OPS
Overall Williams numbers come up short of Gwynn.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/gwynnto01.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/willibe02.shtml |
Agreed. I loved Bernie as a player and I'm sure the Yanks will retire his number. I had a hard time thinking he was a HOF.
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Everyone has the right to their own opinion... but not to their own reality. |
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rude
XMelot #6 - Golden Member
Joined: 15 May 2005
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Location: New Orleans, LA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| CafeSSJ wrote: | | rude wrote: | | CafeSSJ wrote: | Yankee fan bias. I know. But I just read something where Bernie Williams career numbers are better than Tony Gwynn's in most categories. I was shocked. Gynn batted for a way higher batting average, but that's about it. Bernie certainly walked more.
I thought he was a borderline HOFer. Now I'm thinking he deserves to be there. |
I'm going to guess that wherever you read that it was written by a Yankee homer because his numbers are not better than Gwynn's.
Better offensive numbers:
Gwynn - G, PA, AB, R, H, 2B, 3B, SB, SO, BA, OBP, OPS+, TB
Williams - HR, RBI, CS, BB, SLG, OPS
Overall Williams numbers come up short of Gwynn.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/gwynnto01.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/willibe02.shtml |
Agreed. I loved Bernie as a player and I'm sure the Yanks will retire his number. I had a hard time thinking he was a HOF. |
He was a very good player, just not HOF worthy.
I love reading the baseballreference.com pages. There is so much good info on there.
Look near the bottom under Hall of Fame Statistics. He clearly misses under two if the categories, qualifies under one other and barely misses under the fourth.
Anyway, interesting stuff. I've loved reading baseball stats since I was a kid getting The Sporting News each week and buying the Bill James Abstract as soon as it came out. |
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CTGuy
The King of Contrary
Joined: 27 Feb 2003
Posts: 10197
Location: Meriden, CT
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| Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| rude wrote: | | CafeSSJ wrote: | | rude wrote: | | CafeSSJ wrote: | Yankee fan bias. I know. But I just read something where Bernie Williams career numbers are better than Tony Gwynn's in most categories. I was shocked. Gynn batted for a way higher batting average, but that's about it. Bernie certainly walked more.
I thought he was a borderline HOFer. Now I'm thinking he deserves to be there. |
I'm going to guess that wherever you read that it was written by a Yankee homer because his numbers are not better than Gwynn's.
Better offensive numbers:
Gwynn - G, PA, AB, R, H, 2B, 3B, SB, SO, BA, OBP, OPS+, TB
Williams - HR, RBI, CS, BB, SLG, OPS
Overall Williams numbers come up short of Gwynn.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/gwynnto01.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/willibe02.shtml |
Agreed. I loved Bernie as a player and I'm sure the Yanks will retire his number. I had a hard time thinking he was a HOF. |
He was a very good player, just not HOF worthy.
I love reading the baseballreference.com pages. There is so much good info on there.
Look near the bottom under Hall of Fame Statistics. He clearly misses under two if the categories, qualifies under one other and barely misses under the fourth.
Anyway, interesting stuff. I've loved reading baseball stats since I was a kid getting The Sporting News each week and buying the Bill James Abstract as soon as it came out. |
I'm a baseball-reference.com junkie, too. My favorite feature is "similar batters." You put in, say, "Doug Mirabelli" or "Henry Blanco" and you're going to get among the 10 results at least a half-dozen weak-hitting catchers who could occasionally hit the ball a long way. The same thing goes for Bernie Williams. His most similars include Bobby Abreu, Ellis Burks, Magglio Ordonez and Reggie Smith, and they are almost EXACTLY the kind of players I would think about when I watched Bernie Williams play: very good hitters with decent power who played the outfield. None was or ever will be a Hall of Famer; in fact, not one of Bernie's 10 most similars is or was.
Now compare those names with some of those on Tony Gwynn's list: Roberto Clemente, Rod Carew, Paul Waner, Wade Boggs. More non-outfielders here than outfielders, but every one of them was an outstanding major league hitter. Clemente had good power, Carew had none at all, but all four -- and yes, all 10 of Gwynn's most similars -- are in the Hall of Fame, and you can't question the credentials of any of them.
I'm a Red Sox fan, but I have nothing bad to say about Bernie Williams. He was an excellent center fielder (albeit with a weak arm), a clutch hitter with power, and he exudes class. But he's not a Hall of Famer, not even in a weak year. |
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CafeSSJ
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Joined: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 31837
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| CTGuy wrote: | | rude wrote: | | CafeSSJ wrote: | | rude wrote: | | CafeSSJ wrote: | Yankee fan bias. I know. But I just read something where Bernie Williams career numbers are better than Tony Gwynn's in most categories. I was shocked. Gynn batted for a way higher batting average, but that's about it. Bernie certainly walked more.
I thought he was a borderline HOFer. Now I'm thinking he deserves to be there. |
I'm going to guess that wherever you read that it was written by a Yankee homer because his numbers are not better than Gwynn's.
Better offensive numbers:
Gwynn - G, PA, AB, R, H, 2B, 3B, SB, SO, BA, OBP, OPS+, TB
Williams - HR, RBI, CS, BB, SLG, OPS
Overall Williams numbers come up short of Gwynn.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/gwynnto01.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/willibe02.shtml |
Agreed. I loved Bernie as a player and I'm sure the Yanks will retire his number. I had a hard time thinking he was a HOF. |
He was a very good player, just not HOF worthy.
I love reading the baseballreference.com pages. There is so much good info on there.
Look near the bottom under Hall of Fame Statistics. He clearly misses under two if the categories, qualifies under one other and barely misses under the fourth.
Anyway, interesting stuff. I've loved reading baseball stats since I was a kid getting The Sporting News each week and buying the Bill James Abstract as soon as it came out. |
I'm a baseball-reference.com junkie, too. My favorite feature is "similar batters." You put in, say, "Doug Mirabelli" or "Henry Blanco" and you're going to get among the 10 results at least a half-dozen weak-hitting catchers who could occasionally hit the ball a long way. The same thing goes for Bernie Williams. His most similars include Bobby Abreu, Ellis Burks, Magglio Ordonez and Reggie Smith, and they are almost EXACTLY the kind of players I would think about when I watched Bernie Williams play: very good hitters with decent power who played the outfield. None was or ever will be a Hall of Famer; in fact, not one of Bernie's 10 most similars is or was.
Now compare those names with some of those on Tony Gwynn's list: Roberto Clemente, Rod Carew, Paul Waner, Wade Boggs. More non-outfielders here than outfielders, but every one of them was an outstanding major league hitter. Clemente had good power, Carew had none at all, but all four -- and yes, all 10 of Gwynn's most similars -- are in the Hall of Fame, and you can't question the credentials of any of them.
I'm a Red Sox fan, but I have nothing bad to say about Bernie Williams. He was an excellent center fielder (albeit with a weak arm), a clutch hitter with power, and he exudes class. But he's not a Hall of Famer, not even in a weak year. |
ESPN Page 2. Yankee Hater. Bernie Discussion.
http://espn.go.com/espn/page2/story/_/id/7423427/off-base-says-maintaining-10-man-limit-negative-effect-baseball-hall-fame |
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CafeSSJ
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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Congrats Barry Larkin!
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rude
XMelot #6 - Golden Member
Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 19344
Location: New Orleans, LA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| CafeSSJ wrote: | | Congrats Barry Larkin! |
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goreds2
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:38 am Post subject: |
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| rude wrote: | | CafeSSJ wrote: | | Congrats Barry Larkin! |
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